Carwin vs. Lesnar officially off UFC 108
By Jim Murphy November 4th, 2009We strongly suggested that was the case earlier today, the UFC removed it from their website soon after and Shane Carwin just made it official on his blog:
Guys my manager Jason Genet just told me that UFC 108 is not happening. Brock has Mono and what the UFC has told me is that I have earned the title shoot but I have to wait for the title holder.
I hope Brock gets well soon. I highly suggest he get into a Max Muscle store because they have the best advice and supplements to support that advice. It really is the only way to make it through the grueling weather and training we live through.
Here’s to spending some time with the family and eating as much as I can at Thanksgiving.
Thanks to my amazing sponsors Max Muscle, Beaver Buzz Energy, PerformanceMMA, Nightrider Jewelry, MTX Audio, and Warrior Wear.
I just hope they cleaned that horn at the Vikings game really well after Brock blew it.
November 4th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Why is Shane being punished? Can anyone fill me in how the behind the scenes works? at UFC
Other fighters even after losing get to fight 2 4 6 etc times a year and make 100K plus per fight
aka Forrest Griff is going to make another 6 figure after only fighting a couple of months ago and losing.
Shane your too nice of a guy, you need to have your agent do a better job of representing you….
November 4th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
You bring up some very good points. Understanding how the UFC works behind the scenes is like understanding advanced calculus (for an English major like me at least) only with less logical cohesion. You’ve seen how ridiculous things get in public view–there’s no real rhyme or reason of how the UFC ranks contenders or decides who gets title shots. The best I can figure, the best way to get a title shot is win a few fights and get down on your knees and beg to Dana White. Or you can win a reality show which in some seasons gets you an instant title shot. Obviously some fighters receive preferential treatment and others don’t–to some degree this is understandable since some are bigger PPV draws than others. In many cases, however, who gets what in the UFC seems very arbitrary. They have every right to run their business how they see fit, but the fans who support it and those of us who cover it also have every right to call them on it.
Not sure you can blame Shane’s agent here–while the UFC only makes the actual fighter purses public (since they’re required to do so in most states including Nevada and California) they supposedly give fighters bonuses based on PPV buyrates. Due to Lesnar’s popularity, there’s every reason to believe that when he eventually does get well enough to fight Carwin it’ll do more than 1 million buys as opposed to 500k or less for the average UFC show. Maybe its a case where the PPV bonus for such a big buyrate makes it worth his while to wait? Carwin is a real good dude and one of my favorite fighters, but I think we can agree that among the casual fans Brock Lesnar is a bigger name. It could be that he’s thinking that he’ll become a bigger star just by fighting Lesnar, let alone beating him (and I think he has an excellent shot at winning). Maybe its a case where he’s taking a calculated risk that waiting for the fight will lead to bigger paydays both inside the cage as well as outside (eg: sponsorships, endorsements).
IMO, the lack of transparency about how contenders are determined and title shots awarded is a huge barrier to the UFC being accepted into the pantheon of mainstream sports leagues like the NFL and NBA. Even boxing has a more logical way of ranking contenders and awarding title shots. Granted, the bottom line in any sport is making money but there has to be what literary types call ‘logical continuity’ in who becomes champion and who gets to challenge them. Just imagine if the NFL operated like the UFC–Commissioner Roger Goodell just picking two teams to play for the Superbowl every year with no real logic behind who gets the shot? Bill Belichick having to get down on his knees and beg to be included in the championship picture?
November 4th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
@Roger
Oh shut up will you. Pseudo UFC puritan. MMA fighters pull out of fights citing all kinds of minor ailments like flu, a sprained knuckle and all kinds of other BS. Brock isn’t even pulling out here. It’s being postponed. If you think that Brock is stupid enough to believe that by gaining a few months he will come better prepared to the fight then you’re mistaken. What can’t be done in 3 months will not be achieved in another 3. So given the lack of any advantage accruing to Lesnar from a delay and as the fight is still on then how is the guy backing out? It speaks volumes of these so called MMA fans who hate someone just because of their previous background.
Get over it.
Lensar beat Couture, Herring, Mir comprehensively. How many MMA fighters does one know who face these veterans in their FIRST 4 FIGHTS????
Sure Carwin is a good prospect, but you can’t take away anything from Lesnar.
November 4th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
I don’t think he was hating on Lesnar–the reality is that Carwin was ready to fight in November and that if he doesn’t fight he doesn’t get paid. Carwin was supposed to originally fight Cain Velasquez at UFC 103 but postponed that to take the Lesnar fight. In other words, he’s been training since late Summer and still hasn’t had a fight. This fact is due to circumstances beyond the control of everyone involved, but its still a tough situation for him. No one expects Lesnar or any fighter to fight if he’s not 100%, but on the other hand at some point Carwin has to start thinking about paying the bills and putting food on the table. At some point, it could be argued, Carwin would be better off taking a ‘tune up’ fight if Lesnar can’t go for another few months for financial considerations alone. At some point, the UFC should start thinking about having an ‘interim’ title to keep the heavyweight ranks viable. I don’t think its reached that point yet, but if Lesnar isn’t ready for a few more months–and mono is a difficult thing to recover from, at least in terms of getting your strength, energy and endurance back–that consideration needs to be made by all parties concerned.
November 4th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
@Jim
Your arguments seem to suggest that Shane DOES not deserve the title shot. Unless you’re talking about Lesnar which is pointless since he is the current champ. So who are you talking about winning a reality show? And your argument with regard to ‘picking’ kinda falls flat on its face since you proceed to talk about doing away with picking by UFC to having picking by ‘literary types’ in who becomes champion. Logic FAIL.That is if the UFC ‘picks’ at all. And if it does then why hasnt anyone come up with a better version so far? Why haven’t fighters who have not been given a shot left and formed another organisation based on your oh so democratic principles if there is such overwhelming support for this idea. Why do tha fans still watch the UFC product. And talking of mainstream acceptance, where have you been living over the past 2 years? Under a rock? UFC is as popular as it has ever been given that its been hardly a decade since they made their comeback. And comparing it to teams is kinda stupid. Here you decide on two fighters. NOT teams. In NBA and NFL and any organisation, they PICK players. That’s called scouting and then give them a shot at the bigtime. Hey! Let’s have an open public process of selecting freshman for NBA teams! Screw the scouts. Ever heard of bookers? And 1.5 million PPVs must mean that someone there is doing something right.
November 4th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
” At some point, the UFC should start thinking about having an ‘interim’ title to keep the heavyweight ranks viable.”
No. That is ludicrous to suggest. This has nothing to do keeping hte heavyweight division ‘viable’ which has been better than it ever has in a long time. You yourself said that this is case of Carwin not being paid. By extension, this is a case of the UFC not having a better talent management policy. UFC simply doesn’t pay its fighters enough. That much is an established fact when you look at the risks they undertake everytime they step into the octagon. They should pay them more and ideally speaking there could also be a plan to form a union down the line. But interm title for keeping heavyweight division viable? lol. Heavyweight division has plenty of fighters with nogeuira and velasquez possiblu hooking up soon. This is about Carwin. Please do not mislead others to turn this into a sob story of the entire heavyweight divsion’s viability.
November 5th, 2009 at 12:06 am
I think you misread my comment–I said that *I’m* a literary type and I have no business picking who fights who either. I was referring to the term that is often tossed around in literature of a book or story having ‘logical continuity’. The original premise of the Ultimate Fighter reality show was that the winner got a title shot against the current champion. And the UFC has every right to employ who they want for whatever reason they want, but as a fan and a media type I reserve the right to question who they sign and why. What I was talking about is some sort of more coherent ranking of contenders–in the case of Lesnar/Carwin for example: Carwin got the title shot immediately, despite the fact that he was originally booked to fight Cain Velasquez to *determine* the #1 contender. There’s just no logic in that. I have no issue with Lesnar being champion–he beat the guy who held the belt and that makes him a legit champ. You could make another case that it made no logical sense to give a title shot to a fighter with a 1-1 record in the UFC which Lesnar had at the time of the Couture fight in the first place. At the time the fight happened, however, I repeatedly referred to one of my favorite quotes about fight sports–Larry Merchant once said to explain why George Foreman was getting a title shot against Michael Moorer over a number of more deserving contenders “There are many fighters, but very few stars”. Like Foreman, Lesnar was clearly a “star”.
Personally, I can deal with an utter and complete lack of logic in fight sports. I’ve followed boxing and pro wrestling all my life so logic is a very minor concern. But it wasn’t me who has made the UFC’s acceptance as a mainstream sports organization a priority–that was Dana White who has said on various occasions that he wants to be bigger than the NFL in the US and bigger than soccer internationally. And while I have no problem personally with a lack of logic in how the organization conducts its business, the mainstream sports media demands it. As far as I’m concerned, I agree with you–if the UFC is making money and selling PPVs their acceptance in the mainstream is irrelevant. But, again, I’m not the one who has made the UFC’s mainstream acceptance a matter of importance. If the UFC wants to be accepted as a mainstream sport–something I’m not sure is even possible or advisable–the ‘powers that be’ in the mainstream sports media demands a certain amount of order. They need, for example, to know who the top ten contenders are. They need to know that when a contender loses a fight he goes down in the rankings, and when he wins a fight he goes up. They need to have everything quantified with statistics and rankings. Those are their demands, not mine.
In the absence of these, the UFC will always be marginalized as something of a sideshow. Look how all of the mainstream media lit in to Lesnar after his win over Mir due to his pro wrestling background (which we’ve defended him for on countless occasions). Even NASCAR is still marginalized due to its background full of rednecks and moonshine runners and its by all metrics the #2 sport in terms of popularity in the US behind the NFL. To sit at the mainstream sports table you have to play by their rules, many of which are stupid and self serving but they are what they are.
Personally, I share your opinion that the UFC should just say ’screw ‘em’ to the mainstream sports media. The mainstream sports media will never fully accept MMA just as they’ve never accepted any number of other sports such as boxing, NASCAR, soccer, hockey, etc. That’s their fault, and not the fault of MMA or the UFC. Still, if the UFC has made ‘mainstream acceptance’ a corporate goal and if they really want to go that route they need to understand they’ll need to play by the ‘rules’ of the mainstream sports world. I have no interest in seeing that happen and don’t really even think its possible or advisable but if that’s what Dana et. al. want they need to understand the reality of what that will entail.
Incidentally, I’ve been working on an article for awhile trying to understand exactly what ‘mainstream acceptance’ means and why the UFC wants it in the first place. I’m not so sure within 10 or 20 years there will even *be* a mainstream to be part of with the growing specialization and ‘niching’ facilitated by the Internet and other media options. Look for it soon!
November 5th, 2009 at 12:25 am
What I meant is that if Lesnar couldn’t defend his title for an extended period of time–say a year–that at some point they need to start thinking less about protecting their biggest money draw and more about the viability of the division. I agree completely about the UFC needing to pay their fighters more and that would solve a lot of problems in a lot of areas. A union might not be a bad idea, but good luck trying to get it implemented in the UFC who’d fight it tooth and nail. It would have to be a case where all of the top stars banded together and demanded it, and even then it would come back to the fact that guys need to fight to get paid. At some point, however, there has to be some upward movement by the UFC on what they pay their fighters. Dana White likes to make fun of Rampage’s ‘movie career’ but even in lame straight to DVD action films he could easily make more in a year than he does fighting and doesn’t have to get hit in the process. The financial incentive for him to deal with the tough mental and physical demands of being a professional fighter relative to the much easier life of a career in movies just isn’t there. At this point, the film biz offers a much greater potential financial upside–I’m sure Dwayne Johnson doesn’t second guess his decision to get into movies very often.
In any case, thanks for your comments–I can’t say I completely agree with everything you’ve said but you bring up some very good points that have facilitated some interesting discussion
November 15th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
everyone has a good point regarding the salaray fighters receive. the only reason i’m commenting is regarding to the ‘bracket system’ you guys are talking about like they have in any other sports league. unlike those other sports, the UFC has like… 100+ fighters under contract. to legitimately set up a bracket system they’d have to let everyone fight at least once. that would result in a bunch of crap fights no one wants to watch and it would take forever for a championship fight to be setup. i like the way theyre doing things now. see whose popular and let them have a shot.
November 15th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I don’t know if I’d want to do a formal ‘bracket’ but I do think some type of formal rating or rankings would be good. There’s already plenty of ‘crap fights’ but I think it would legitimize the sport if everyone know that if a fighter beats a higher ranked fighter he moves up, and if he loses to a lower ranked fighter he goes down. I don’t have all of the answers, that’s for sure but I do think it would be good for the sport if who got title shots and who didn’t seemed less arbitrary.